I don't disagree, but I suppose the structure of my comment didn't convey the message correctly, that is, that NVDA is just maximizing profits while screwing over gamers because a) they can get away with it and b) they are an ever decreasing portion of their revenue.
The argument is simple really. By intentionally dropping the hashrate, you reduce the incentive to buy the GPUs for mining. This means that when or if the mining craze stops akin to 2018, there would be plenty of second hand 3xxx series cards to go around, which would only hurt NVDA's pocket. Recall that during the previous craze, NVDA was stuck with a huge inventory of GPUs after the craze ended, inventory that can not be recycled. IIRC they announced that they have more GPUs from 1xxx series available, iirc 1050tis.
NVDA's stance is that miners are the reason for scarce GPUs, but it is not. There has been scarcity since the 3xxx series was announced, similarly for AMD. The reality is that there is simply not enough silicon being produced; with AAPL hogging TSM's 5nm for a year, AMD and NVDA competing for 7nm wafers for AMD's CPUs, GPUs, and the console's SOCs and for NVDA's GPUs, and soon to be joined by INTC.
By cutting 3xxx production for gaming to accommodate crypto they ensure that there won't be second hand gpus flooding the market and eating their profits once the craze is over. Why is that? because it will not be as cost effective to miners to buy 3060s instead of the dedicated chips because of lower performance per watt. Once the craze is over, the miners won't be able to liquidate their dedicated cards, thus, the demand for GPUs for gaming remains intact, thus, they will be able to sell their 3xxx series and 4xxx series without getting screwed over by second hands and they will not be stuck with a huge inventory as was the case in 2018.
Edit:
Infact, the second hand 3060s would outcompete anything NVDA could offer in 1080p and 1440p gaming and anything NVDA could release with their 4xxx cards. In addition, there isn't enough incentive to even go beyond 1080p or 1440p for gaming. Which is why you will see NVDA pushing how great 4k and even 8k gaming is with their recent publicity stunt for 8k gaming on a 3090.
What you’re asking for is to get royally screwed by miners now - again - just so you might have the chance to get a cheap and very-used card later. And you’re blaming Nvidia for losing this imagined opportunity a year from now.
Right, like you point out, in 2018, Nvidia was making a lot of money on leftover 1080s. And they’re proposing to not do that this time. Are you suggesting that gamers are going to bypass a $330 card for a year in hopes that mining will crash and they can get a used one for $200 that’s been running hot for an entire year, and then after waiting, give up on that and buy a brand new GPU?
> The reality is that there is simply not enough silicon being produced.
You say potato, I say demand. You’re hand-wavily suggesting that mining is not affecting supply at all. That’s just not true. Mining demand is making an already bad problem (for gamers) much worse, just like it did last time.
What is the huge profit windfall you’re suggesting happens after this current mining bubble pops? Nvidia isn’t going to have an oversupply of cards to sell, and they aren’t hiking the price of the 3060.
This all seems completely speculative too. You’re complaining about a supposed future problem, and ignoring what this does for gamers today.
And it’s weird to frame this as gamers being screwed by Nvidia just because there could have been some awesome second hand market later. The fact is that gamers were totally screwed by miners in the first place when cards weren’t available for a year and the second hand prices were quadruple the list price. It’s not a huge gift to gamers that the market is flooded with cheap leftovers after they were hosed and frustrated and extorted by miners for a year or two.
Gamers are getting screwed by Nivida today since the silicone they normally bin as gaming cards are being allocated to mining cards.
In return they're only given the 3060 which is still profitable for miners and Nividia refuses to restrict mining on any other gaming Geforce series card.rxqy
Miners are also screwing over gamers by buying their gaming cards today. In future miners will be a positive for games as they flood the used market with gaming cards.
> the silicone they normally bin as gaming cards are being allocated to mining cards.
That's an assumption, it's speculation. If true, it means there will be no 3060s for gamers because they'll sell out as CMP, in contradiction to what Nvidia said. We will see if your assumption comes true...
I don't know why your speculative assumption makes any sense. If the chips that could be sold to gamers were being sold to miners instead and effectively "screwing" gamers, then it means that there's no point to segmenting the market, no advantage for Nvidia. It would be no different than letting miners buy the 3060s, and just not having CMP cards.
> In future miners will be a positive for games as they flood the used market with gaming cards.
That doesn't make up for the losses to gamers up front, it does not compensate by 100%, it can't. It would be better (for gamers) if there was no bubble.
> What you’re asking for is to get royally screwed by miners now - again - just so you might have the chance to get a cheap and very-used card later. And you’re blaming Nvidia for losing this imagined opportunity a year from now.
Re very used: no. Cards used for mining are a) undervolted and b) underclocked, both increase lifespan and I'd take them over an overclocked card used for gaming, plus they don't run that hot because at those scales cooling is expensive.
> Right, like you point out, in 2018, Nvidia was making a lot of money on leftover 1080s. And they’re proposing to not do that this time.
I never said NVDA was making money off leftover 1080s because there weren't left over 1080s, it was 1050tis which they are selling off again. The same 1050tis that they held onto during 2018.
> Are you suggesting that gamers are going to bypass a $330 card for a year in hopes that mining will crash and they can get a used one for $200 that’s been running hot for an entire year, and then after waiting, give up on that and buy a brand new GPU?
As I mentioned above, mining GPUs are usually in better conditions than in some dusty and improperly cooled rig and, simply put, there aren't $330 cards for anyone to buy. If people wish to buy $330 cards, they can buy them, but for me, at 21x9 1080p@60 there is no reason to upgrade from my used 1080ti, and had I really needed something better, I'd consider a used 3060.
> You say potato, I say demand. You’re hand-wavily suggesting that mining is not affecting supply at all. That’s just not true. Mining demand is making an already bad problem (for gamers) much worse, just like it did last time.
I never said mining isn't affecting demand but, a) the crypto rally started loooong after NVDA had supply issues, b) Amd has supply issues with their CPUs and they are utterly irrelevant to mining, c) this generation of consoles made with the same wafers can't meet the demand.
The demand was there before this cycle of mining frenzy.
> What is the huge profit windfall you’re suggesting happens after this current mining bubble pops? Nvidia isn’t going to have an oversupply of cards to sell, and they aren’t hiking the price of the 3060.
They won't because they are artificially limiting the hashrate, and they are producing more chips for mining. Last time around, people managed to get around the no display issue and could game on "mining gpus" (see Linus Tech Tips, they have 2 videos on the topic), but now NVDA is locking people outside with firmware making reusing mining gpus impossible.
I am complaining exactly because NVDA is taking care of their shareholders and their bottom lines. I am complaining because it goes against my interests.
Gamers are not screwed by miners, gamers are screwed because the pandemic caused a huge influx of people demanding chips, so much so, that even automotive manufactures can't find chips.
I am tired of this conversation and you are either taking my sentences out of context and blow them out of proportion.
> I am complaining because it goes against my interests.
So you are already certain you want to buy a used 3060 next year?
> I never said mining isn't affecting demand
You said "NVDA's stance is that miners are the reason for scarce GPUs, but it is not."
> the crypto rally started loooong after NVDA had supply issues
This is irrelevant. You mean this time, right? There wasn't a supply problem last time before bitcoin miners bought everything. It doesn't make any difference to gamers which contributor to scarcity came first, when you're talking about 3060 sales that haven't started yet.
> I am tired of this conversation and you are either taking my sentences out of context and blow them out of proportion.
I think you're taking this entire issue out of context and blowing it out of proportion. You claimed gamers are being screwed, when they're not, they're actually being helped. Many gamers here and on other threads are happy that Nvidia is taking steps to curb miner scalping of the 3060. The change here is to a single model, the 3060. Segmenting that market over this single model helps gamers today, and is not going to kill the second hand market for gaming cards. All other models will be untouched, and the 3060 will still be available second hand.
> So you are already certain you want to buy a used 3060 next year?
I wanted to buy a graphics card to run my models. I don't have the $$$ to buy a datacenter card for it and in general, I am affected by the demand and the scalpers. I was considering 3060 because my models are small and it is faster than my 1080ti, but at 21x9 1080p@60hz, it's not an upgrade for my gaming experience because that is capped by the monitor, and I am really not willing to buy a new monitor.
> You said "NVDA's stance is that miners are the reason for scarce GPUs, but it is not."
The reason is mentioned before, too much demand for chips, not enough fabrication. You instead, blame the scarcity on mining, mining is part of the demand but is not the main factor.
Linus and many others, me included, disagree with your opinion that NVDA is helping gamers. NVDA does not care about gamers, they are a corporation, they care for their bottom line and their stock price.
> Linus and many others, me included, disagree with your opinion that NVDA is helping gamers. NVDA does not care about gamers, they are a corporation, they care for their bottom line and their stock price.
This argument that Nvidia is a company is a straw man. Valve is as much a corporation that doesn't care about gamers as Nvidia. I guarantee that Nvidia cares about gamers, precisely because gamers have a huge influence on NVDA's stock price and bottom line.
I love Linux, but Linus has a vested interest in opposing Nvidia in public, and has a long history of making inflammatory remarks, even to people he works with. Using his opinion as support of your claims here undermines the credibility of the discussion, as far as I'm concerned.
To attempt to move the goalpost back to where you first placed them, the question here is whether reserving 3060 sales for gamers is good or bad for gamers. You claim it's bad for gamers vs the second hand market next year, and I claim it's good for gamers vs the first hand market today. We haven't actually disagreed about this yet, because you haven't addressed how your opinion affects gamers right now.
I agree that this might lead to a different second hand market next year. It is true that the second hand sales next year might not be as low without first having a big mining bubble that first prices gamers out and then crashes. I just don't believe that cheap cards later makes up for what miners have already done to you. If you do, it seems like you're ignoring some of the big downsides of what's happened before and what's happening now.
> I am affected by the demand and the scalpers. I was considering 3060
If you want to buy a 3060 now, I don't understand why you can't see the CMP announcement as a good thing for you and your own bottom line.
If you want to buy a used, mined 3060 later, and give your money to a miner and not Nvidia, then I do understand your points.
I am referring to this [1] Linus, not Torvalds. Watch the video. You have already decided that it is the miners that are screwing you over, and even when presented with evidence, you to the contrary, you keep shilling NVDA.
Sorry, you're right, I misunderstood the Linus reference as Torvals not Linus Tech Tips.
But so you count reductionist click bait opinion commentary on YouTube as "evidence"? Commentary that comes from a company who's profit motive is driven by clicks and attention? Saying that companies primarily care about their bottom line is tautological, it contains no information. It's still a straw man regarding whether or not segmenting 3060s is a net positive for gamers.
Last chance... you still haven't addressed the first-hand market effect on gamers of trying to get miners to buy something else. You haven't yet backed your claim that this is bad for gamers right now. I've basically agreed with what you said might happen, that the second hand market won't look like what happened in 2018. I can only assume that if ad-hominems are going to be the response to an honest question to what you said, then you don't actually have an answer?
Yes, I did, twice. The arguments in the video do not contain a single point that hasn’t been covered by people repeating the talking points here.
The thing Linus didn’t address, and the thing people don’t seem to understand about the basic economics of the situation is that there is no amazing second hand market getting flooded with cheap GPUs without first getting hosed by miners, having the prices go through the roof and not being able to get one for the next year. If that happens, then yeah, sure, the used ones will be cheap some time later, and you don’t get to choose when or even if mining crashes before the next GPU update. If that’s really what you want... enjoy.
That video is primarily an ad. It’s an ad for a VPN service and literally a ball-shaving kit. “If you imagine it any other way, then congratulations, you played yourself.” - Linus.
You’re making a huge assumption that they could be resold, even if they’re the same chips. This could be an entirely new market for chips that have yield defects in the graphics units, that will not ever work for games, and were previously already put in the trash.
And your theory doesn’t explain two things: - how this hurts gamers now, and - why if Nvidia just wanted profit and the chips are useful for games, why wouldn’t Nvidia simply do nothing and let the miners buy all the 3060s. Wouldn’t that be the most profitable thing here?
In fact, why wouldn’t Nvidia just hike the price of the 3060? They could make a lot more money on miners if they wanted to, and really screw gamers. But that’s not what’s happening. So from a gamer’s perspective, I just don’t get being mad at Nvidia rather than being mad at the miners who caused this to happen, again.
> And your theory doesn’t explain two things: - how this hurts gamers now, and - why if Nvidia just wanted profit and the chips are useful for games, why wouldn’t Nvidia simply do nothing and let the miners buy all the 3060s. Wouldn’t that be the most profitable thing here?
No it is not. If they mis-predict when the mining craze ends, they will be stuck with a huge inventory and no way to deal with it. The reason they will be stuck with the inventory is because the miners will be able to sell the second hand cards at a rate that NVDA simply can't compete with, so they end up as the bag holders just like it happened with the 1xxx series.
Infact, I'd wager that DLSS and RTX were used as a hacky solution to drive people away from the 1xxx series because the 1xxx series was more than sufficient for 1080p gaming - which is the most common resolution. The 3xxx series, even the 3060 is an overkill even for 1440p let alone 1080p.
This, to me, suggests that had NVDA not gimped the hashrate of the 3060, once the craze was over and the market was flooded with 2nd hand 3060, people would not be incentivised to buy anything above a used 3060 because it is a) an overkill for 1440p@120hz and b) it has much higher perf/$ than anything NVDA could offer with the 3xxx or 4xxx series and it wouldn't make any sense to go with anything higher anyways because 4k gaming doesn't seem worth it unless you are playing on a TV.
Strange theories on top of strange theories. The GTX 1080 is good enough forever? People are using 1080p forever? Games are staying put with the fidelity and textures and poly counts they had 5 years ago, and not improving any more? Last time I checked, there weren’t all that many games that run at 60Hz 1080p and never dip.
You're taking his words out of proportion. Just by looking at the steam hardware survey you'll see that the majority of gamers buy mid range cards and own 1080p monitors. The most popular games aren't the latest AAA titles either.
There isn't a game option survey but I'd bet most gamers with mid range cards run AAA games on medium as they value being able to play over a beautiful slideshow.
The GTX 970 is just borderline whilst the GTX 1080 is "pretty much sufficient" for modern games according to this benchmark: https://youtu.be/bhLlHU_z55U
What are you talking about here? My argument is rather simple and you are wilfully misinterpreting it to make your statement. If you want to game, at 1080p, there is very little reason to spend money on a big upgrade, even going with 3xxx series is an overkill.
> Last time I checked, there weren’t all that many games that run at 60Hz 1080p and never dip.
CITATION NEEDED.
The 3060ti is benchmarked at 4k hitting mid to low 50s in high settings in Shadow of the Tomb Raider and hitting 100fps at 1440p with 0.1% minimums at 90fps.
> You’re making a huge assumption that they could be resold, even if they’re the same chips. This could be an entirely new market for chips that have yield defects in the graphics units, that will not ever work for games, and were previously already put in the trash.
Chip binning is nothing new, the article even explains this phenomenon.
Fully agree. Didn't suggest otherwise. That doesn't mean that the CMP cards are binning in the exact same way. I mean, isn't it a guarantee that the binning criteria change here to accommodate CMP? Isn't it entirely possible that the new bins are opportunities to sell wafers that couldn't be sold to gamers at all? Nvidia already has market segments for compute cards with no video. Yes, I'm speculating. So is parent & the article. I'm not sure it even matters. What matters is that gaming supply is less destroyed by mining demand.
I am may be off base here, but isn't this how the Nvidia Geforce Now service work? Rendering on their systems and streaming to a dedicated client?
I have used this service to play a few different games which I have licenses too where the developer no longer supports Mac; oddly this seems to have gotten worse with M1 chips.
> oddly this seems to have gotten worse with M1 chips.
If a developer wasn't around or willing to recompile and test their game on x64 to support Catalina (which dropped support for 32-bit apps), then it's not surprising to me that they are also unable or unwilling to recompile and test and support the game on M1 ARM chips.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY4s35uULg4
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1nok2VlF1M
[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfIibTBaoMM