I had a very nasty case of insomnia 7 years ago. Without going into details of my associated illness, I went 2-3 months with almost no sleep due to hypnic jerks/sleep starts. When I told people I couldn't sleep, they assumed I just had difficulty falling asleep, but I literally could not fall asleep. It is terrifying. For whatever reason, whenever I miss a significant amount of sleep (one or two nights) I get very bad sleep jerks to the point I would start to fall asleep 30+ times a night and then wake back up immediately. The only two ways past it I found was a benzo sleeping pill or alcohol and both were hit and miss (just to inhibit the jerks - I had no problem starting to actually fall asleep). Even then, my body seems to build up massive adrenaline after sleep deprivation, so I would wake up 1-2 hours later in a cold sweat and have to start all over. The more sleep I miss, the worse it gets, and after you miss several nights in a row you get VERY "sleep anxious", and so the cycle continues. Once I'm caught up, I'm fine and the jerks disappear completely, but it takes a while. I just had another case of the jerks this year for the first time since then but I was able to get over it in about 3 weeks this time. Still, it freaked me out as I had considered myself past that and had gotten a little bit careless.
The point of this long winded intro: Don't take sleep for granted. If you sleep well, cherish it. Ever since this time I keep immaculate sleep hygiene. I go to bed on time, at the same time, get daily sunlight, don't eat before bed, and 9/10 times I'm asleep in minutes and sleep great. I still have occasional early wake insomnia, but for the most part sleep well.
Occasionally I think about things like mentioned in this article and what the long term effects will be, but mostly I just don't worry about it. There isn't anything I can do about it at this point except try to sleep as best I can from this point forward.
Went through 2 weeks of insomnia after living on a ship for a while, then back on land for 2 weeks, then back on ship for 6 months -- was normal after finally returning. Maximum 1 hour sleep for 2 weeks straight, most nights none.
The thing about those two weeks, was with no sleep there is no "refresh" between days. If I asked myself the question of what I had for breakfast this morning, it would have multiple answers. The past several days were "today" in memory. It was very disconcerting. It did have a cool upside of reading several books in 2 weeks time, but the downside was feeling like everything in the world was wrong.
Thankfully when I went back on ship, I was able to sleep again -- best sleep I ever had with the rocking and white noise.
My experience of being sleep deprived is that my memory starts going downhill -- I feel like I have difficulty recalling what happened on days where I was running on little sleep, even after I have had good rest. It's as though those memories weren't properly stored and just disappeared.
I did several days straight without sleep and got mildly delusional. I remember sitting up, thinking about something (can't remember what) and then a minute later realized I was just thinking complete nonsense and got up to work.
Well, it wasn't just breakfast, it was everything that I might consider "today" stacked on top of each other. So if I had a mental list of "things to do today", that just got longer. It was my mind was cluttered.
I wasn't as tired and craving of sleep as I would have expected. Probably physically tired a bit just because I was sitting up reading books all night instead of getting good rest. Individual tasks in the "now" didn't seem too bad, but everything else (and it turns out to be a lot) that depended on short term was messed up -- conversations with people, where I parked, what day it was, routine tasks which felt like they were already done but still needed to be done that day, etc...
I might need to do the laundry but felt like I had already done the laundry -- but that was 4 days ago. It took mental effort to observe what day it was, rather than waking up on Wednesday and knowing all day that it is Wednesday. Instead it I "knew" it was "Monday" and I also knew it was "Tuesday", and it certainly didn't feel like Wednesday. So I was spending mental effort for things that just flow naturally. Thankfully I didn't have much to do during those two weeks.
maybe they didn't realize but if you subjected them to any sort of cognitive, physical... actually you can almost say whatever kind of test, their performance in just about all of them would vastly downgrade compared to them in a rested sleep status.
these results have been known for a long time for various problem solving tasks (your error rate and task completion time will skyrocket), physically focused things like weight lifting or cardio (you will lift less and not be able to run as long before hitting a wall etc.), reaction tests (you will become a slowpoke), memory tests, mood and other psychometrics. there are also fairly obvious outward physiological effects, like increased collagen production will give you baggy eyes, etc.
I havnt stayed up for quite that long but even 96 hours without any sleep is a strange experience. Watching the sun go up and down multiple times without a break does mess with ones head a bit.
I am incredibly envious of people who have good or even average sleep. For some reason the last year or so I haven't been able to sleep well if I drink too much water. You know, that thing that we all need to survive daily? It's super messed up and every specialist I see waives it off.
I also get really bad sleep anxiety/water anxiety. And you're right, articles like these are only good for scaring normal people who fight their own bodies from sleeping. They're pointless for people whose bodies are fighting them and can only generate more stress.
Most sleep specialists are "sleep apnea specialists" in my experience. Can be useful if you have that, but was of limited use during my issues. I had to find my own way.
Best of luck. Not sleeping sucks. And I totally agree, all these articles do for those with sleep issues is add more stress. Very few people choose not to sleep.
Ugh, I've been getting that sense over the last few months but I was holding out hope maybe I could find one that wasn't. The whole specialty medicine thing in the US is another awesome thing to navigate :)
I had a primary care doctor insist that I needed to see a sleep specialist about possible apnea, even though I told him that I wasn’t tired or having trouble sleeping. I went through with it because I was curious if the specialist would have any additional insight, but nope, it was just checking for apnea and sending me on my way.
That could be linked to electrolyte balance. Depending on your water source, if it's too low in minerals it can flush out your system causing something like hyponatremia (low sodium), which can cause sleep issues.
I had similar problems when I used a Brita filter with a ketogenic diet, switching back to regular tap water fixed it. :)
I agree, and magnesium is a key one. I certainly find I become sleepier easier if I use magnesium bisglycinate (or any magnesium really, but the bisglycinate is absorbed better and hence has no effect on my bowels!:) Coffee not only provides a stimulant but also prevents magnesium being absorbed well[1], so if you like coffee it's worth taking some.
I also take magnesium bisglycinate, usually at night [1].
I recommend everyone does their research on magnesium deficiency. Supposedly the vast majority of the nation is low in magnesium due to soil quality depletion. Vegetables these days just aren't packing the same punch that they once did.
As a parallel connector noted, electrolytes- Gatorade powder, either regular or sugar free. If you use the grape with soda water it makes a pretty nice grape soda.
I'd also ask about a benzo or other chemical help.
I am not a doctor and this is something to ask a doctor about, but Amitriptiline has been great for improving my sleep (as a side effect of the main reason) but it is also mild in terms of side effects (mood, next day drowsiness are minimal)
and generically available too. YMMV of course.
With no sources, and only a second-hand anecdote, I’ve heard that fasting from anywhere between 3-7 days can have some crazy effects on sleep (apparently you have tons of energy at odd times, ketones, etc etc). Anyway, might be worth a shot in the dark if nothing else seems to work for you during those spats, maybe try a bit of a fast and see if it provides a helpful shock to the sleep system?
Interesting suggestion. I thought I had tried everything, but never tried anything like that. Thx will keep in mind if it ever happens again (god I hope not).
Research seems to support it: "Compared to baseline, a significant decrease in arousals, a decrease in periodic leg movements (PLM) and a non-significant increase in REM sleep were observed at the end of fasting." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12748412/
Though, personal anecdata: I sleep less during week-long water fasting (<7h instead of usual ~8h). I feel excellent but the total duration is less. Resistance training (barbell) increases the duration for me.
I find when I can't sleep the best treatment is fig newtons and milk, which is about the opposite of this. I also find that food to close to or far away from bedtime is injurious to my sleep.
It's "nice" to meet somebody else who has experienced hypnic jerks before. It's like torture how they set in right on the edge of sleep. I went through a period of months of sleep jerks that seemed to be induced by a back injury, it's like my nervous system was going haywire in the presence of a pain signal as it was switching into sleep mode. Not only was it terribly disruptive to my sleep, it interfered with the healing process of my injury and turned into a vicious repetitive cycle.
While it was happening, I'd describe the sensation as like skipping a stone - I'd have to go in steep by taking a valium and going to sleep at my most tired or else I'd need to resign myself to "bounce" off the sleep surface a bunch of times before I finally fell through.
I used to have really bad anxiety, not as bad anymore, but I have no doubt that once I start missing sleep the anxiety plays a big role. I doubt anyone can go more than a few missed nights w/o getting really anxious - I think it is an inevitable result of sleep deprivation.
I can totally relate to your surge of adrenaline - my body gets really funky when I miss sleep. Most people get sleepy and more prone to doze off, but I have the exact opposite (I get wired but tired) and can often feel my heart beating in my ears and chest.
I also remember discussing with my wife if the hospital would sedate me beyond something like a bezo which was of limited use for me (I would sleep 1-2 hours per pill). Sounds like you had success - I'll keep that in mind if there is ever a next time :-)
Wow, that's a real nightmare scenario (no pun intended). I suffer from the same kind of hypnagogic jerks, albeit to a much lesser extent. The one trick that sometimes helps for me is to try sleeping on my stomach. It know it sounds like bunk... but putting a bed in the way seems to help dampen the sudden motion to the point that I can start falling back asleep almost immediately.
Yeah, I can second sleeping on the stomach. I guess I'm lucky, it's never been that bad. I often twitch myself awake immediately after the first time I fall asleep - but it's only ever the first time, and not every night. I've never found a pattern / reason, but it doesn't happen if I'm on my stomach.
Sometimes I mostly "sleep" through it - only wake up enough to notice and then fall right back to sleep, since I'm familiar with it now. But it wakes up my spouse, and startles the cat. :/
Interesting suggestion. I've always been a back sleeper and occasionally in the mornings when dozing, side sleeper. I think it would be challenging for me to sleep on my stomach, but it would be definitely worth a try if it comes back.. thx
Generally speaking, I'm a back and side sleeper, but sometimes if I really need to sleep, I always find stomach sleeping works the best (and lowers stress -- if something was keeping me up, stomach sleeping usually helps). That being said, it hurts my back to sleep on my stomach. I've found the putting a pillow under my stomach helps, but not completely.
I get worried too. I had untreated sleep apnea for upwards of 10 years (age 13 - 23). Each night my oxygen dropped to 85% or lower (this is what they recorded in the sleep study), and I woke up literally every minute for 10 seconds or more.
Scary to think about what my future holds, I know my attention span / memory sucks much more compared to when I was younger... anyways, I hope studies like these are wrong.
I've always wondered about this advice. I find it very difficult to fall asleep on an empty stomach. And even then I wake up much earlier than usually and very hungry. Usually I try to eat something heavy about 3 hours before going to bed.
IIRC multiple studies have found that eating a few hours before bed makes it easier to get to sleep. Avoiding eating 3 hours before bed is the advice I see about avoiding reflux (in addition to GERD reflux can go into the lungs and be less symptomatic).
Hence 'SUPPER' <-- supper was always common, and typically (in my neck of the woods) "Dinner at ~4:30PM" or so.
Dinner was if you had guests.
---
I have two strong personal takeaways at this post:
A)
* I have long had sleep issues, with the jerks and what not (I have them literally every other day, to this day)
* I recognize that many people ITT are high-IQ/thought-producing-workers
* The fact that REM does a basic "mental-wash" over your cortex and brain in gen, thus to solidify (calcify) memories into system. Such that if you experience poor sleep - you have a poor memory. This is TRUE for me.
B)
* Diet is a huge factor. And intuitively enough, just yesterday I was feeling that my internal sodium/potassium pump was off... I could feel it.
I eat a lot of bananas, but a close person to me is a Cellar Somm at TFL, who has 19,000 bottles of wine in the catalogue, and she constantly berates my poor memory ; but she literally eats a banana every single day on way to work, and has the ability to fall asleep in seconds, and when asleep - sleeps like a mummy.
ALSO partakes in smoking pot - which is commonly referred to when talking about memory loss, but jer memory is impeccable even over a decade, the details she can recount... (Dont make a fool of yourself at TFL).
The weird thing was I was literally thinking about the importance of the potassium sodium pump, and that I could feel an imbalance in my own body on such (my focus was on meditating on the health of my kidneys) but knowing that its also related to sleep and, more importantly for me, memory ; and the REM WASH - I am convinced this will be next step in restoring what was perviously a photographic memory when I was 15...
Alcohol ruins sleep for me. I wake up randomly during the night after a few beers, and I miss out on deep sleep and REM sleep. If I don’t get REM sleep I can barely function the following day.
Dosage is the key. I drink one quick glass of red wine before bed when I'm having jerks and that often does the trick. Sometimes I need a second. But yes, too much alcohol and you will awake later in the night typically...trade offs.
Or baclofen (5mg or 10mg before bed), similar but a bit different (and not scheduled if you are in the US). Either should also help keep you asleep, at least for the first night or two (like almost anything that affects sleep :(). Both affect GABA-B receptors, and I think alcohol affects both main types. Although, if your issue is similar to my similar issue (usually mild sometimes during the day but worst before bed, although not enough to keep me awake ever) the baclofen (or sodium oxybate) might even possibly make them worse (seems possible in my case, although I'm not sure it is all that likely that it does).
Another one you might not have considered is rosmarinic acid ("rosemary extract" or "lemon balm extract" or just a strong lemon balm tea). This reduces the metabolism of GABA and in my experience had a distinct but fairly mild effect on sleep that lasted a month or two of continuous use (unusually) but then took over a year to have any obvious effect again (possibly even longer, I haven't tried it much since and I can't remember if it ever really helped again). Unfortunately, I don't remember it having much effect on my movement issues but since alcohol and benzos affect your issue it might be worth a try rather than those if it happens again (hopefully not!). I was using 200mg rosemary extract standardized at 20% rosmarinic acid (from a no longer available source). I don't know if the chamomile does something similar, in which case it likely wouldn't help you due to the tolerance.
I fixed my sleep with modafinil, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone not just because I'm a nobody but because fixing sleep wasn't why I was taking it, that was just a happy side effect. My problem was and in part still is that it's quite hard for me to stay awake during the day, which meant that when I was in school I slept through most of it and when I was at work I would either fall asleep or "zone out" to the point of no functionality.
Once when I was operating a lathe someone told me to stop the machine after it passed ~300mm on the X axis, which takes maybe a minute, but before it reached that point I was already out of it, luckily the person was nearby and very quickly noticed what's happening and managed to stop the machine.
Modafinil helps me keep my eyes open and stay present in the real world. But I'm my country you can only get it via a prescription, so it's not really accessable.
You know, I feel like shit, I wanted to write something about my experiences in the past but all I could think about my doctors warning me not to share stories like these on the internet as future employers may read them and consider them a strong red flag.
Am I overly cautious?
Getting healthy sleep is a real issue many are battling with I believe.
I have one account tied directly and obviously to my true identity, and another (this one) that is not. Unless a future employer had access to HN's server logs (or my ISP, etc), they wouldn't be able to tie this comment to me.
A medical condition caused me insomnia that kept me up for four and a half days once. After the second day, my entire body began to hurt. By the end, I couldn't follow the plot to movies to keep myself distracted from how miserable I was and I stopped forming whole memories. I was so disoriented that I was afraid to walk down a steep hill to go to a pharmacy because I was afraid I'd trip and get badly injured.
Months later, I watched a couple of different movies that I thought I'd never seen. But I kept knowing the next couple of plot points. I didn't know how they'd end, but I'd clearly watched them in that dilapidated state because I always knew what was about to happen next in the next scene.
[deleted and reposted where I meant to reply after mis-click]
My best guess is it is a form of epilepsy commonly called "negative myoclonus". Essentially it causes involuntary limb movement whenever you relax. When sleep deprived, it can also happen for me at night before bed when I'm relaxed sitting in a chair. I also noticed my startle reflex is greatly exaggerated during these times. Strangely it ONLY exists when I'm sleep deprived. Right now, for example, I have zero symptoms of this.
Because parts of your body must work to digest that food (gut, liver, pancreas, etc). You don’t perceive it, but it’s happening. Then your blood sugar raises, which your body works to bring down. So your body is not resting even though parts of your brain may be.
I started noticing that whenever I was fasting, my sleep quality seemed to be much better.
I finally decided to try not eating in the late afternoon or evening, i.e. I'll try to have my last meal by 3 or 4 PM.
My sleep quality improved noticeably from doing that. I wake less often at night, and in the morning wake up feeling more refreshed. Definitely worth a try, though it may just be me.
There's been various studies on it (1), nothing super conclusive, but general medical belief seems to be eating shortly before bed (< 1hr) disrupts time to go to sleep.
Is a jerk accompanied by something happening in a dream?
I have this every now and then, for example I start dreaming that I'm walking and then I suddenly trip on something which wakes me up.
It also worsens if I'm already deprived of sleep. To me it feels like the longer I stay awake the more vivid my dreams are and they start earlier as I'm falling asleep.
For me it's not really an inconvenience as it doesn't happen that often, but it's annoying as I have to fall asleep again.
No, I don't get far enough into sleep for that - it happens right at the point of dozing off.
I know what your talking about and do occasionally get those kind as well. I will dream something like I'm walking down a sidewalk and suddenly the next step isn't there and I jerk awake. I usually get this if I fall asleep sitting vs laying, etc.
In case you haven't tested for it yet, maybe mention to your doctor to test your serotonin levels as hypnic jerks are a known symptom of low serotonin levels.
I had a bad case of this in 1997/1998 for about two weeks, it was terrible. I didn't know the name, "hypnic jerks." Like a fool I didn't go to the doctor. I occasionally get those jerks while just on the verge of sleep now but it doesn't last more than 10 or 20 minutes.
- exercise. I lift weights and do some cardio. Ease into it as overdoing it can make it harder to sleep. Do in morning or afternoon, not evening.
- comfort. If your bed isn't comfortable get a new matress. It can make a world of difference.
- chamomile tea before bed. I drink two cups nightly.
- I supplement magnesium, and find that taking a big dose before bed both helps my sleep and mild jerks
- Make sure the room is dark. I use a sleep mask as otherwise I wake up at 5-6AM when the sun cracks thru the blinds
- Make sure the room is cool. My upstairs bedroom doesn't cool well via central air so I got a portable unit to assist
- Relax. One night of missed sleep won't kill you and if you can convince yourself of that, you are more likely to relax and fall asleep
- Deep breathing. If you can't fall asleep. Practice relaxation via deep, slow breathing in your belly, not your chest. It takes practice, but works great.
- Pzizz app. Awesome, awesome stuff. I like the relaxed breathing and sleep hypnosis sessions
- If your brain just won't stop, try some inositol. I take 3g (most pills are 500mg, so 6x) and that seems to work
- Some melatonin can help if you just can't get "sleepy". For something stronger, 50mg of benedryl knocks me out good. I try not to take either of these very often though.
For about 2 years now, I've been doing most of my workouts in the late evening. It's mostly weight training. I rarely start before 9pm and often start around 11. Last night, I went from around 11:30 to 12:15. I take about an hour to stretch, shower, rehydrate, and wind down. Then I fall asleep like a rock for the entire night.
The point of this long winded intro: Don't take sleep for granted. If you sleep well, cherish it. Ever since this time I keep immaculate sleep hygiene. I go to bed on time, at the same time, get daily sunlight, don't eat before bed, and 9/10 times I'm asleep in minutes and sleep great. I still have occasional early wake insomnia, but for the most part sleep well.
Occasionally I think about things like mentioned in this article and what the long term effects will be, but mostly I just don't worry about it. There isn't anything I can do about it at this point except try to sleep as best I can from this point forward.