Black_13 appears to be shadowbanned so I'm reproducing their comment here:
black_13 11 minutes ago [dead] | parent | context | unvouch | favorite | on: Germany creates 'super–high-tech ministry' for res...
The cynicism in these comments is telling, but misses crucial realities about Germany's capabilities and social achievements.
Yes, Germany creates bureaucracies. Yes, Dorothee Bär's digital infrastructure record isn't impressive. And yes, German bureaucracy can be stifling. But this myopic focus on administrative inefficiency overlooks Germany's formidable strengths.
Germany maintains world-class engineering and manufacturing excellence through their Mittelstand network while America has hollowed out its industrial base. German research institutions like Max Planck and Fraunhofer consistently produce breakthrough innovations in renewable energy, advanced materials, and chemical engineering. Their aerospace contributions through Airbus and DLR deliver real technological advances.
More importantly, Germany excels precisely where America falters. Their dual education system creates exceptional technical competence without requiring college degrees. Germans enjoy comprehensive public transportation infrastructure, universal healthcare without administrative bloat, and urban planning that prioritizes livability over speculation.
The results speak for themselves: Germans live significantly longer (81.1 years vs America's 76.4), face virtually no gun violence (2 deaths per million annually vs America's 120), and don't suffer from the manufactured scarcity that plagues American housing, healthcare, and education markets.
Critically, Germany isn't now teetering on becoming a police state. While America expands surveillance powers, militarizes police forces, and faces growing authoritarianism, Germany's post-war constitutional framework continues to prioritize civil liberties, privacy protections, and democratic norms. Their painful historical lessons have created institutional guardrails against authoritarianism that America increasingly lacks.
Let's be honest about who's posting these dismissive takes - primarily privileged tech workers disconnected from the material realities faced by average citizens. While you mock German bureaucracy from comfortable positions, their social systems deliver concrete benefits that many Americans can only dream of.
Germany's approach allows for longer, healthier lives with dramatically less precarity than what Americans experience. Their new ministry may face bureaucratic challenges, but it builds on foundations of technical excellence and social achievement that deserve genuine consideration rather than facile mockery.
> comprehensive public transportation infrastructure, universal healthcare without administrative bloat, and urban planning that prioritizes livability over speculation.
This can't be further from the truth. This is probably written by an American, and US is a very car-centric, but German infrastructure is a shitshow.
Also healthcare is absolutely stiffled by bureaucracy. I have a friend who is a cardiologist. He says that exactly half of his work time is paperwork. And not just paperwork, but German paperwork, where you manually type PDF fields one by one, then print, then sign, then scan and so on.
As someone who lived in multiple rich countries in Europe, let me tell you that the German healthcare system is awesome. It has a lot of problems, but it's head and shoulders above many-many other countries. You can actually get care by a qualified doctor, while this is absolutely not self-evident even in rich countries like the United Kingdom, and let's not talk about CEE countries.
I would disagree. German doctors regularly prescribe homeopathic medicine, misdiagnose patients and tell people they just need to drink tea, and also will not supply medicine when it is really needed. This is well researched.
Saying you can not get care by a qualified doctor in the UK is a completely false statement.
> This can't be further from the truth. This is probably written by an American, and US is a very car-centric, but German infrastructure is a shitshow.
I just know that this is a comment from a German person who has little experience with public transport in any non-top-class country. Yeah, it could be better, but it could also be so much worse.
> Also healthcare is absolutely stiffled by bureaucracy
I lived in Russia, Georgia, few European countries. Even in Georgia trains are way more punctual, than in Germany. Moscow metro works like a Swiss-clock compared to U-Bahn/S-Bahn.
Maybe what you are talking about is true for some very pour Asian/African countries, but many middle-income countries have more reliable public transportation, than Berlin. Not to mention developed ones and China.
> I lived in Russia, Georgia, few European countries
I've been to Central America, Egypt, Istanbul, Sicily, Spain and many more candidates that take a more lax attitude to daily life. Their public transport could certainly be better.
> but many middle-income countries have more reliable public transportation, than Berlin
Berlin is not Germany. Berlin is badly run, constantly out of money (especially for infrastructure) and very different than the rest. Still, inner city public transport is generally reliable, if dirty and sometimes full of questionable people.
What do you consider a non-top-class country? Is your statement just tautologically true, because any country with better public transit then germany would be considered top-class?
>Also healthcare is absolutely stiffled by bureaucracy. I have a friend who is a cardiologist. He says that exactly half of his work time is paperwork. And not just paperwork, but German paperwork, where you manually type PDF fields one by one, then print, then sign, then scan and so on.
Wait. That's exactly how paperwork has always worked for me in America. What am I missing?
This reads as FUD. I'm an American who's lived in Germany recently. On every measure, my experience was been better than the US.
I can walk to the grocery. Or ride a bike. Or take the bus. Or take the train into the city. There are options in transport and in the stores. Never, ever had those options in the States.
Yes, I've had some doctors I didn't care for. So I found another one and they've been great. Same thing happens in the States. You must advocate for yourself. Nothing different.
The big difference is the complete lack of fear going in because you know you won't have to pay an arm and a leg. And yes, it's not "free". It comes out of your paycheck. 110% better. Never had to wait an excessive time, even for specialists. No more than in the States; you schedule it out. Yet, I can go to the emergency room when there's a concern and be greeted with compassion and receive care. So much better, it's hard to convey and hard for Americans to believe. I didn't until I lived there.
As for "digitalization", yeah, it'd be nice to submit some forms online rather than through paper. But it's not a big deal. Howwver, it's super nice to talk to human beings on the phone! Haven't run into too many "your call is very important to us. Please listen as our menu may have changed" and then have to deal with a 1kbsp mega compressed audio line. Also, while I've had bad experiences with clerks, many more have been very patient and gracious. Again, contrast that to the DMV. Not much difference.
Doctors in the US also deal with tons of paper work...has your friend also worked in the States?
Interesting comment, but Germany's much-vaunted Mittelstand is in its initial death throes. Key industries and IP are being auctioned off to the highest bidder, not the least, for lack of heirs. It isn't universally acknowledged, but the same processes that caused the US's manufacturing decay have been occurring in Germany; at roughly the same speed, but with a 30 year lag (since Agenda 2010) viz-a-vis the US.
I don't even know who pushes this German exceptionalism propaganda - is it themselves or do they have 'German-weeaboos' who think everything German is better?
> Germany maintains world-class engineering and manufacturing excellence through their Mittelstand network - small companies are not unique to Germany. But you'll be surprised how many German industrial automation companies (a domain I know something about), basically haven't changed their product portfolio in the past 10-15 years. Research institutions aren't unique to Germany. The fact you're banking on the clout of having invented MP3 40 years ago is weakness masquerading as strength.
> Their dual education system creates exceptional technical competence without requiring college degrees. - they do have excellent training for skilled technicians, I do give them that.
> Germans live significantly longer - the 28th longest life expectancy in Europe
> Germany isn't now teetering on becoming a police state. - no comment on this, because I don't want to turn this into political mudslinging, but needless to day, this isn't an uncontroversial take. It'd be more accurate to say Germany isn't becoming a kleptocracy/plutocracy like the US.
Having no gun violence and having a higher life expectancy than America is not something to be proud of and not a useful benchmark. This comment is a prime example of Germany's inability to take external criticism - it nearly always devolves into comparison with America. You know many non-americans also criticise the state of Germany currently?
Having lived here for a bit over 5 years, I can say that Germans too often like to speak from the moral high ground. There are things that are sacred and indisputable, like opposition to nuclear energy. Try to complain about a strike in public services causing you inconvenience, and you will invariably get lectured on solidarity. I've seen people interrupting speakers at public events to "provide important context" that was nothing more than self-flattery from the interrupting person. I do believe in this country and think that it has way more upsides than downsides, but the people here could sure use a bit of humility.
I've often wished for /pol/ style flags on HN. I think a lot of people get offended when their country is criticized online because they feel that the criticism comes from a foreigner.
What I mean by this is - is that this is such a low bar - of not having rampant gun violence and short life expectancy, especially when correlating them with GDP. This should not be a point of pride or comparison to beat this bar. Most developed countries in the world achieve more than America on these metrics, therefore it's a useless benchmark.
>Germans live significantly longer (81.1 years vs America's 76.4)
Got to point out a nuance here.
Americans living shorter are partly the result of America's success. An aggressive big pharma and a health care system that over medicates the population and give them bad advise ( eg nutrition) is one reason why they live less. Often more technology/business is not necessarily good. Germany's overall better outcome with result to life expectancy can be attributed to their incompetence/bureaucracy but certainly not a conscious decision to be better.
I have lived in Germany twice, the first time around 2005-2006 and the second time around 2016-2018, mostly in Bavaria and other southern parts.
The first time the public transportation infrastructure was very decent, certainly better than in most countries, even if not comparable with something like Japan.
The second time, 10 years later, there was a visible degradation in their railways, because the trains were almost never on time. I have lost a flight and a very large number of train changes because of train delays. However when going by car on their freeways I have not noticed anything worse and with a good car one could travel easily with a speed much above 200 km/h for a long time without problems, though there were also some congested segments.
I have never been ill, so I cannot comment about the state of healthcare.
I have never been in USA, but all the descriptions of the transportation system that I have seen, even of the infrastructure for cars, appear inferior to even the last version from Germany, which was degraded in comparison with the older one.
> Their dual education system creates exceptional technical competence without requiring college degrees.
Unless you do your Ausbildung in a job where you can learn mostly all the skills within a couple months, after which you'll just be shamelessly exploited by your employer for the remaining duration of it.
> Germans enjoy comprehensive public transportation infrastructure,
Yeah, our train systems are pretty cool (can reach most places.) But if your expectation is anything more than 'hopefully arrive by the end of day', you'll regularly be disappointed.
> and don't suffer from the manufactured scarcity that plagues American housing
Have you tried renting in any bigger city in the past 10 or so years?
> Critically, Germany isn't now teetering on becoming a police state. While America expands surveillance powers, militarizes police forces, and faces growing authoritarianism, Germany's post-war constitutional framework continues to prioritize civil liberties, privacy protections, and democratic norms.
I disagree with the claim that Germany is currently on a path strictly "prioritiz[ing] civil liberties, privacy protections, and democratic norms."
Not only did German politicians in 2021 broaden the scope of §188 StGB to include insults against politicians, even at the local level[1], the new coalition contract also has some pretty dystopian views on how to approach opinions/statements they categorize as 'disinformation'[2] (ministry of truth anyone? - ah nevermind, they sidestep that by letting NGOs do the dirty work for them.)
Pair that with the fact that they plan to (again) try to introduce data retention laws without cause[3], I do not personally believe that claiming we strictly prioritize civil liberties etc is a correct assessment of the overall situation here in Germany.
Overall I suspect the post has been written with the aid of LLM, I wonder who/why would do such a thing though. There's just something off about the tone.
> Have you tried renting in any bigger city in the past 10 or so years?
I am German myself and I get where you're coming from, but there are worlds between German rent prices and American or even London, Amsterdam or Dublin rent prices.
I'm not sure about that. 2 bedroom apartment in Munich for ~1500 euro on maybe a 75k eur salary vs ~4000 usd in SF on a 180k usd salary. They're pretty similar numbers, relatively.
black_13 11 minutes ago [dead] | parent | context | unvouch | favorite | on: Germany creates 'super–high-tech ministry' for res...
The cynicism in these comments is telling, but misses crucial realities about Germany's capabilities and social achievements. Yes, Germany creates bureaucracies. Yes, Dorothee Bär's digital infrastructure record isn't impressive. And yes, German bureaucracy can be stifling. But this myopic focus on administrative inefficiency overlooks Germany's formidable strengths.
Germany maintains world-class engineering and manufacturing excellence through their Mittelstand network while America has hollowed out its industrial base. German research institutions like Max Planck and Fraunhofer consistently produce breakthrough innovations in renewable energy, advanced materials, and chemical engineering. Their aerospace contributions through Airbus and DLR deliver real technological advances.
More importantly, Germany excels precisely where America falters. Their dual education system creates exceptional technical competence without requiring college degrees. Germans enjoy comprehensive public transportation infrastructure, universal healthcare without administrative bloat, and urban planning that prioritizes livability over speculation.
The results speak for themselves: Germans live significantly longer (81.1 years vs America's 76.4), face virtually no gun violence (2 deaths per million annually vs America's 120), and don't suffer from the manufactured scarcity that plagues American housing, healthcare, and education markets.
Critically, Germany isn't now teetering on becoming a police state. While America expands surveillance powers, militarizes police forces, and faces growing authoritarianism, Germany's post-war constitutional framework continues to prioritize civil liberties, privacy protections, and democratic norms. Their painful historical lessons have created institutional guardrails against authoritarianism that America increasingly lacks.
Let's be honest about who's posting these dismissive takes - primarily privileged tech workers disconnected from the material realities faced by average citizens. While you mock German bureaucracy from comfortable positions, their social systems deliver concrete benefits that many Americans can only dream of.
Germany's approach allows for longer, healthier lives with dramatically less precarity than what Americans experience. Their new ministry may face bureaucratic challenges, but it builds on foundations of technical excellence and social achievement that deserve genuine consideration rather than facile mockery.