Is anyone else bothered by hyperspecific products like this? 95% of what it does can also be done by scissors for 5% of the price and 10x the lifespan.
Cutting thick cardboard with scissors is a good way to hurt yourself.
You need some strength and a sharp blade to cut cardboard with scissors, for a child, it can mean going full force. And the more strength you use, the less control you have, increasing the chance of hurting yourself. That's also the reason why dull knives are considered dangerous. Scissors are for paper, not cardboard.
This tool looks much more controllable, which means it is safer, even before considering the intrinsic safety of the mechanism, more precise, and more fun to use.
I remember cutting chart paper (thin card stock), then corrugated cardboard which was easy unless you were cutting perpendicular to the grooves and finally heavy card which, I agree was finger bruising. There's also some amount of fun in improvising tools from what you have around you. I'm wandering dangerously close to the "back in my day" territory but nevertheless. I think there's a place for childrens tools that are close enough to the real deal but still safe. However, going too far away from the real deal makes it just a toy.
I got my son some balsa, sandpaper and a sharp knife. I also got him a pair of gloves which were resistant to the blade. Showed him how to use all of those and he's quite good with his hands. Carved a few trinkets for his friends.
I remember an article about, I think the Inuit, exposing their kids to cutting tools early on in their lives. Can't find the link. Perhaps there's some kind of optimal point in between that balances between "real" and safe.
With proper education, children (obviously) are safe around tools... Louis Braille notwithstanding. We've had sharps for 40,000 years. Use this one. Don't touch that one until you're bigger. Same as crossing the road: small ones OK; big ones DO NOT GO THERE.
The problem lies in the words "proper education". Dropped off at school is not sufficient, so kids get blunt scissors that will barely cut.
Your mind will play tricks on you, the last thing you'll think before the accident is 'this is safe'. In machining a technique to fight that thought is - don't touch anything with your finger that you wouldn't touch with your 'pecker'. With falling asleep while driving you'll often think a little nap wont hurt - an absolutely ridiculous thought in hindsight but you're not working with 100% of your faculties 100% of the time.
There are many activities where accidents are rare but severe resulting in overconfidence. In activities like motorbike riding or gliding aircraft people will convince themselves that they're skilled enough when all that has happened is that they've been lucky, and given enough instances their luck will eventually run out. Knowing the stats can help avoid confusing luck with skill.
I generally study the stats and even I get caught out, usually when working while fatigued so I simply have to refuse to work when that happens - the accidents are not worth it.
My woodworking teacher in highschool was missing two fingers on his right hand. I don't think anyone is 100% safe around tools, child or adult, educated or otherwise. Life's about risks and how you manage them.
Which is not to say that kids can't be trusted to use tools! It's just that they're probably more vulnerable to overconfidence and complacency than adults, who are by no means safe from these things themselves, so it's probably better to let them cut themselves once or twice on a sharp knife before you let them use something with more permanent consequences, like a bandsaw.
In my observations the most overconfident and complacent tool users are the ones with the most experience, not the least. But perhaps it depends on the kid.
I probably stated that the wrong way. I think kids are more prone to overconfidence at any given skill level than adults, and checking in on them helps reduce the risk. It also helps for adults, but we're mostly not responsible for what adults do.
I was working on wood 3d model and one piece broke, and I was trying to cut a replacement out of the extra wood available, and couldn't get a cutter to work.
I thought left-handed scissors are some bullshit sales tactic to eke out some extra cash out of clueless people, until I saw someone on HN explain why "handedness" of scissors is a thing - and then I finally connected the dots and realized why my (then) 4yo daughter is struggling with scissor crafts so much. Got her a pair of left-handed scissors and, lo and behold, her cutting improved on the spot.
(We then bought some more and gifted them to her kindergarten, to make sure she and other left-handed kids have a pair when needed, because the idea was new even to some of the personnel there.)
The thing about being left-handed, is that as you get older, you generally become reasonably proficient at doing things right handed, because the world is built for right-handed people, but from my experience, never quite get the same level of control.
I do quite a few things right handed, some I only do right-handed; and interestingly, I have more strength/power in my right arm/hand but have more control with my left.
Left-handed scissors are something I've known about ever since I can remember, but given how infrequently I use them, I've never bothered to buy a left-handed pair, and continue to just struggle along the couple of times I do need to use them.
My kids seem to switch back and forth between left and right, but they're still young, so I'm keeping an eye out for either of them being left-handed so I can help make things easier for them (an excuse to get some left-handed scissors perhaps?) if it does turn out to be the case.
My house has a number of left-hand scissors for me and my wife, but only since half a decade or so. For most of our lives right-handed scissors dominated, and no one ever seemed to care in schools etc., whereas we did get left-handed fountain pens at some point.
My son, fortunately for him, is right-handed. I have no doubt that this saves him a lot of frustration.
If you are left-handed and reading this, get yourself some nice left-handed scissors. Trust me.
> no one ever seemed to care in schools etc., whereas we did get left-handed fountain pens at some point.
Older generations were actively trained to 'become' right-handed. My father at school used to get slapped on the hand with a ruler by the teacher, whenever he took his pen in the left hand.
> whereas we did get left-handed fountain pens at some point
Writing was the bane of my life in high-school, where they insisted we use fountain pens; I had no idea left-handed fountain pens existed. Even with a more suited pen, I imagine it wouldn't resolve the issue of running your hand through the wet-ink you've just laid down.
That was some decades ago now, and I intend never to write with one again, so there's that.
EDIT: I just realised I still have my the last fountain pen I used at school (25+ years ago?) in my pen-holder and grabbed it, it's a Parker Frontier, steel with "gold" accent/clip. I still have a strange fondness for that pen despite not ever wanting to write with it again.
I think it was one of those phases education went through. My writing isn't bad even, but that is despite some of the pedagogical approaches in vogue at the time. I remember getting a left-handed work book for practising the loops and waves in the first grade as a step before actual writing, and the approach used went so far as to demand left-handed children write with a backwards slant! Pure lunacy for kids learning to write. I never accepted that idea and just went on smudging my paper until ballpoints took over.
Now I write using a Japanese Kurutoga mechanical pencil. No pens for me if I can help it.
The problem with this kind of thinking is that it doesn’t take into account how annoying other methods can be. Or how tools open up possibilities.
I can beat 10 egg whites by hand. I’ve done it several times. But it sucks. A handheld electric beater is fairly cheap and way better. You know what’s even better? A stand mixer that cost several hundred dollars.
Is it worth it? If you bake a lot it’s worth it.
This biggest problem with this kids toy is that it’s for kids and cost ~$250. It’s really an adult toy or something for the classroom.
If it was half the price, I’d pick one up, have bit of fun and on sell it or donate to other families.
I like it from the standpoint of kids not being afraid of power tools. Plenty of adults would never do woodworking because the tools seem too scary. Teaching kids that power tools don't need to be scary as long as they're used safely is a worthwhile output on its own IMO.
The best advice I ever got re: power tools from an old shop teacher was that before throwing the switch and powering up a machine, to count to 10 on one's fingers under one's breath while reviewing every aspect of the planned operation, and all the forces involved, reminding oneself that one wants to be able to repeat the count in the same way after the switch is turned off.
That said, I think it's best to maintain a healthy respect for, and even to a reasonable degree to be afraid of the machines and the forces which they can exert.
"Teaching kids that power tools don't need to be scary as long as they're used safely is a worthwhile output on its own IMO."
True but real safety first thinking is not something that a purchasing decision will fix.
I have a scar on one of my fingers that was caused by a broken broom! How bloody naff is that but it bled like buggery and a 1" flap of finger flapped for a while and needed stitches at A&E (for Americans - that's where you pop in and a few hours later pop out, all patched up without a credit card being involved).
I wasn't wearing gloves. I am a first aider, H&S rep for my company (my company - I care about my troops) and so on. I was sweeping my drive with a broom with a hollow metal tube handle and it partially snapped and hinged and caught my finger and partially sliced a lump. Oh and I am the fire officer and even my house has a multi page fire plan.
I own a plethora of torture devices - a table saw, multiple chain saws, chisels and the rest. I have skied for four decades and drive a car/van/lorry.
Safety first thinking doesn't mean that you escape all of life's efforts to kill you but you do get a better chance of avoiding damage.
A power tool that promises safety might be missplaced. However, this one does not missrepresent itself. It does what it does and it does it well.
For me, I will be digging out the hand cranked jigsaw when I show the grand kids how to chop off their fingers: A fret saw. However that thing looks like a great introduction to dealing with power tools.
Consider table saws. SawStop built its brand on not cutting fingers off, which is scary enough. But it turns out that kickback causes a lot more injuries and that's not really addressed well by any tools.
There ought to be a market for MEs to design power tools that are safer for consumers. So where is the obviously-named "KickStop" table saw? Maybe the decline in the middle class makes that market too small to consider such improvements.
Safe is a function of training and guards and competence when using a tool and above all an awareness of the forces involved and how to position oneself so that should something go wrong, one will not be in the line of movement of potential projectiles. This means that the first thing one must ask oneself when walking up to a tool is, "Am I well-rested, and sufficiently clear-headed and well-versed in this operation that I will be able to focus on using this tool safely?"
Sawstop wouldn't have a business model if tablesaw accidents were tried by a jury of shop teachers whose awareness of this is brought into focus by a career of explaining how to safely use power tools (see my post elsethread).
That's the thing, one should _never_ think of using a power tool automatically --- there should _always_ be a concern re: what part of my body could be injured or removed?
The saw stop creator patented and tried to license his tech (not make a saw,) the major manufacturers didn't want to pay the license fees.
I sort of get it, for actual job sites using dimensional lumber you're going to have the saw in bypass the entire time because the wood is wet, making the safety moot so the market is there for hobbyists but not pros.
First thing the "pros" do is remove the guards. I've never seen a guard on a jointer or a shaper at a pro shop. The products fit the demand in the market.
I'm a pro. I'll agree about guards on a table saw. The ones we get in the USA are without exception crap. I haven't used a Wadkin or European style saw. I can only assume that as much as they must cost to make, there's some merit to them. A riving knife is a really nice feature and I wholeheartedly recommend leaving it in.
Shapers are a mixed bag. If you're running enough straight stock making moldings, you've probably got enough featherboards and/or hold downs if not a power feeder set up that you'd really have to try to get hurt. For smaller jobs or curves work, it's a tossup, but yeah, a lot of it gets done without a guard.
Jointers I'm going to disagree with you: I pretty much refuse to run without a guard. Except for rabbeting, I haven't found a good reason to do so. I have done so in other shops, usually on machines so old that the guard was lost 50 years ago and is irreplaceable. Generally though, if I don't see a guard on a jointer in a shop, I'm pretty wary about what else might be being treated a bit too casually. A guard on a jointer is an easy win with very little downside.
The expensive saws in the US come with good guards. However there is no way you can put a $300 guard on a saw and sell the whole saw for $100. Thus cheap saws get cheap guards that get removed (if they are even installed). Stick with hand tools until you can afford the expensive saws with good guards is my advice.
The above is about table saws. There are other power saws you should consider instead that are cheap and work. However there is a reason the table saw is considered the king of so many woodshops and until you get a good one you will be compromising ability to do some common jobs. Just because everything can be done with a rock to high doesn't mean most people are willing to do that and I don't blame them: a table saw should be in your plans or shop if you are a woodworker.
Out of curiosity: who does make a table saw with a decent guard in the non-industrial price range? Even Powermatic and SawStop ship with guards that suck.
For the record, mine is a Unisaw from the late '70s. I've got an original Delta sliding table for it that greatly improves dealing with any wide pieces, but it's definitely not the equal of a Felder, for example.
I would be hard pressed to justify the space for a euro-style slider. I usually have the sliding table off unless I am doing a job that requires it because of the floor space it takes up.
I don't know - I've never had the budget for a nice saw. I've come close a few times, but something else comes up.
If you are spending $2000 on a saw spending $300 on a third party guard to go with it isn't such big deal. The cheap saws often are not even strong enough to attach the nice guard if you would spend the money.
A good guard will prevent kickback and thus save you from injury. Fingers are an obvious risk of a say (and such accidents happen all the time), but kickback is the larger danger and the right guards will prevent that.
On my consumer grade Dewalt, the blade guard, riving knife, and kickback guard are all separate components, so I guess I was considering them separately. I still don't trust the kickback guard fully either, so attempt to stand off to the side if possible if I'm worried about kickback.
I agree, my jointer has a guard but you need to pull a little Allen key out to put the guard on/off. That little extra friction is enough I think. Someone needs to rabbet and never puts the guard back on.
Personally I like my digits, but I’m not in a production shop where every second counts, I just do this for myself and I make my living typing. I would tolerate any amount of friction to keep my fingers in the same configuration they are currently in.
I feel like you want to teach that they are dangerous and can be used safely when careful. A woodworker I know almost cut their finger clean off despite having years of experience.
A British magician called Paul Daniels managed to slice some fingers on a table saw. He had been making his own tricks gear for decades.
Safety thinking can slip - you only have to cock up once when you are pushing an amorphous mass into a blade spinning at say 3000 rpm and lose concentration.
Table saws, band saws etc and the like are dreadful.
My wife manages to make a simple drill/driver somewhat dangerous to the point that I have to sometimes fake a reason why husband should take over (yes I am very careful - she's generally sharper than the tool in question!)
You don't need power tools for most of woodworking anyway. That's a ridiculous excuse to avoid it. I've built furniture and framed buildings almost entirely with hand tools.
I started with power tools. Moved to hand tools for a year or so when I moved houses and still had my table saw, etc. in storage.
Now that I my power tools are back in the garage — I can't quit the power tools — right back relying on them. I just couldn't plane quite as nice as my joiner (and certainly not in one pass). And sharpening the hand tools...
I earnestly want to do more hand-tool woodworking. I keep thinking that, as I get older, I'll eventually full in on hand tools. But at 61 years old ... not yet.
Treasuring the sensation of making art by hand does not imply somebody is a Luddite in all respects.
I enjoy hand-crafting small circuits but am glad to use my cell phone to take a picture of the result. I love riding a bicycle but use a car to go 30 miles when needed. There is no contradiction to be had here. Just different purposes.
I own spoke shaves, multiple jack planes, and the rest. My garage is quite literally a torture chamber of devices that a medieval sociopath would dribble over.
I'm perhaps not quite so distracted by a well rounded fillet in a cast iron or steel body as you appear to be!
I love all materials and the ingenious ways we have found to fashion those materials. I only recently bought a router because I had to cut a wide and deep rebate in a door to fit a finger handle. Doing that with chisels is possible but a bloody nightmare. An over enthusiastic wack or allowing the grain to take over too much would have needed a potentially ugly repair.
I speak en_GB so when I say router (spinning power tool) and router (IP packet shuffler) they sound different.
I've just taken a look at that page you linked and may have to dump my browser cache and try and forget where I saw the link ... 8)
I have the opposite experience with a router. I use mine when I need to, but I find using the correct hand tool far easier to control. If I had to do what you were describing I’d chisel the vertical cuts with a hand chisel so I had nice clean edges and I would hog out the material with a router plane. This one is my favorite: https://www.lie-nielsen.com/products/1-71-ct-large-router-pl...
The moulding plane book I linked really opened my eyes to creating profiles. I’ve had to match multiple non standard profiles cut into different mouldings, window sashes, mutton bars, etc in the old house I live in, and that would be impossible without cutting a custom profile for a shaper. Seems like a huge waste of effort to cut a tool steel profile for a one off when I can just grab a couple hollows and rounds and make literally anything.
> I like it from the standpoint of kids not being afraid of power tools.
I'm personally cultivating my fear for power tools. I consciously work on it so I wouldn't get used to them and wouldn't stop being afraid. Fear makes me more attentive, more careful, it forces me to think first and to do next. To stop myself when things go not as planned and think again. It is almost impossible to distract me while I'm cutting wood or whatever I'm doing with a power tool. I'm afraid of the tool, I wouldn't let my attention to switch from it while it is powered.
It is funny, that psychologists believe that fears is a bad thing that must be eliminated. At least all I've talked about fears believed in that. But fears are good, they come with a danger detector included, and they are hard to ignore.
> Teaching kids that power tools don't need to be scary as long as they're used safely is a worthwhile output on its own IMO.
I believe, that either "to use safely" or "not scary". There is no middle ground. Though it maybe just my own way to the safety, maybe others know other ways.
> Plenty of adults would never do woodworking because the tools seem too scary.
The fears that stop you from doing are probably bad, but from the other hand, before using power tools you'd better learn how to do it safely. I learned all of them from experienced people, who demonstrated me how to do it properly, watched me and explained me what I'm doing wrong. So, maybe, they are right.
> I'm personally cultivating my fear for power tools.
I get what you're saying, but to get there you have to willfully conflate an irrational fear of unknown consequences with a rational fear of known consequences. The barrier for many adults to power-tool use is the former, which blocks them from acquiring the latter.
> The barrier for many adults to power-tool use is the former, which blocks them from acquiring the latter.
I don't know such people, and I don't know any research of the motivation of such people. But I can suggest an alternate hypothesis explaining their behavior. They just don't want to deal with power tools, have no interest in acquiring the skills, and they use their fear to explain their unwillingness causally.
A lot of people didn't even try to learn how to use musical instruments, and oftentimes they explain it by their tone deafness. But a good ear is not something people are born with, it is a result of training. Genes probably play their role, but for the most people it all boils down to practice. They didn't practiced, they cannot know about how good their ears are, but they use tone deafness as an excuse. What is really happening, they are not interested enough, or lazy, or have not enough time, but they use their inability to sing karaoke perfectly as a sign of tone deafness and as an excuse to not learning how to play music.
Tone deafness as an excuse is better than others, because it doesn't allow for persuasion, it is a full stop. The fear of power tools seems to me like that. So my hypothesis, this fear not the reason, but an excuse. I'm sure it is not true for some people, at the same time I'm sure it is true for some, the question is how many people use it as an excuse. I don't know, but I'd bet that more than 50%.
Not at all bothered by this, this is very unique. Scissor skills are important but more so for paper which has limitations versus cardboard. I use a lot of power tools and my kid watches me kind of bored, unable to participate. I could easily see him feeling like we were 'working together' if I had one of these setup in my shop. He also likes to create all kinds of stuff and I'd be interested to see what he'd come up with.
But, what does bother me is the price, $250 seems steep.
It is not easy for children to cut cardboard with scissors. I'd say that remains true at least until age 10. Some younger may be able to manage a small amount of cutting but would get tired quickly.
I volunteer with scouts, kids aged 5-8. We ran a cardboard based activity with the makedo stuff. We tried to supplement with scissors, they were not effective.
I’m pretty sure a nibbler will not wear out anywhere as quickly as scissors.
It can allow young children to work independently so you’d have to factor in cost of supervision with the scissors.
Main problem with it is that it is more expensive than many real nibblers designed to cut steel, I guess for now that it is niche and designed for classroom use. Mass market it and I think it could easily come down to $50.
Cutting cardboard in straight lines with scissors is easy, but cutting convex curves other shapes is really not, especially if you want to avoid bending it and collapsing the corrugation. Personally I use a knife, but obviously that isn't suitable for very young kids (not hugely safe for me either lol, I almost cut the end of my thumb off not too long ago...)
Not at all; you've missed the point. Everyone knows you can cut a box with scissors. The point is that you can't cut a board with scissors. This is a basic woodworking skill, and I think it's great if you can come up with a way to safely get kids accustomed to what those tools can do.
Are there all that many parents who want to teach their kid woodworking, but can't use the classic teaching method of taking them to the workshop and handing them a coping saw under careful supervision?
I mean, I'm sure there's a handful of parents who value woodworking skills but do no woodworking themselves - but are there enough to support a whole product category of $250 cardboard tools?
Depends on the age. I've had my 4yo in my garage with me at times. And while he's "helped" me with a few things, it generally consists of me holding the tool with his hands on the handle as well. His strength, dexterity, and simply small size prevents him from really getting much out of it other than a sense of participation. Valuable, but he's not learning anything.
When he's older and bigger, then using real tools will be more practical, and we can using the real thing. The risk will be more manageable then.
At this stage however, this chompsaw looks appealing. Instead of disappointing him when he wants to drive and having to diplomatically explain that he lacks the strength and coordination to use the actual tool, I can just hand him this. Give a bit of instruction, and then let him experiment. That feeling of "hey, I'm doing this myself" is exciting to him and gives him a sense of accomplishment.
Long story short, I see this as a product aimed at a younger audience who aren't old enough to take the lead (with guidance) in the workshop yet, but want the feeling of doing it themselves in a safe way. I like it.
Yeah, the price is certainly a deterrent. My kids are tweens/early teens, almost aging out, and while they still like making things with cardboard, not sure I can justify that kind of investment for what is really a relatively simple tool. I mean, my 3D printer barely cost more than that, and that's a high-tech precision machine.
I actually think this isn’t really an “at home” toy. A couple of these in an elementary classroom or a library or even a community maker space, make a lot of sense, since the building material is basically free.
Agreed. It's like that old Russia-America joke. When they go to space they find out pens don't work because of gravity. Americans spend millions developing a pen which works without gravity while the Russians use a pencil.
I don't like Russians, but it's so stereotypically American to over-engineer a complicated alternative to scissors.
And just like the old joke your are missing important practicalities.
Pencils in space were terrible. Small chunks of carbon absorber of and getting in electrics was bad. Pens were a huge improvement.
Likewise I can't only presume you haven't ever cut large quantities of corrugated cardboard with scissors or ever seen a child struggle with the task. This device looks to be a massive utility increase for cardboard cutting for children.
It wasn't the Americans who spent millions. It was a single American: Paul C. Fisher who spent it own money because he thought Astronauts should have a good pen to use in space. His pen was so much better than the pencils used by both the Americans and Russians that both immediately switched to using his pens.
A few extra important points, the NASA space pen was cancelled due to cost overruns and when they finally purchased the Fisher pens it was at normal retail prices.
And grease pencils were an option, though not as good as pens.
